Authorized Dealerships - pleasure and pain

[geolemon]

It's doubly frustrating to reading posts from people asking advice on how to wire up equipment that is fundamentally incompatible...
For example, a dual 4 ohm voice coil sub to a 2 ohm stereo stable 2 channel amp.
It's not their fault - usually this is a new enthusiast, how are they supposed to know? That's why they trusted the advice of the shop. Shame on the shop, most often. Doubly so when it transcends ignorance, to maliciousness.

The frustration that keeps rising like a thermometer is the realization that the current story again seems to indicate simple ignorance of people working in these shops.

Actually, the frustration wouldn't be there, if these weren't "authorized dealerships". After all, any yahoo can sell things.
However, there's supposed to be some integrity behind that "Authorized Dealership" status. That often seems to give the consumer not a real level of comfort, but too often a false sense of security.

Manufacturers claim that they set up these "authorized dealerships" not to create profit-maximizing local monopolies for these lucky shops, but rather to protect both the manufacturer and enthusiast from inappropriate product combinations and installations that potentially damage equipment...

But looky here...
Issues like a shop selling an amp and a subwoofer that aren't even fundamentally compatible.
Hey, I've NEVER heard of anything like that before...
Any wonder I am such an advocate of that system?

I feel that there should be MUCH stronger levels of assurance to the consumer, particularly when you are talking about the total dollar investment that's being made by the consumer for no other reason than they believe they need - and have found - an expert to assist them.
This is not an inexpensive hobby, the responsibility on behalf of the professionals selling and installing the gear should be proportional with respect to that! Do you feel like it is?

IMO - incompetance [when you are talking about such expensive investments], should be a crime punishable by law, IMO... and let's not get into the situations involving downright victimization from aggressive commissioned salespeople.
The manufacturers who grant these local monopolies, calling them "authorized dealerships" I don't believe have put effective safeguards in place to protect the consumer.

Now, bear in mind please...
This is NOT the thread to discuss "I had a great experience" or "I had a bad experience", because one-off, individual experiences with any shop is neither here nor there.

I'd like to discuss what current safeguards are claimed to be in effect by the manufacturers supporting these "authorized dealerships", and how they enforce violations.

I'd like to discuss what you personally believe a shop needs to do to become "authorized", what training or qualifications you believe are required, and compare that to what really are the requirements.

I'd like to discuss what reasons exist, for why these "authorized dealerships" are established... what consumer protection, shop protection, dealer protection, or other reasons are out there, and whether they are valid.

I'd like to discuss what flaws exist in the "authorized dealership" concept, what liabilities are inherent, what opportunities for abuse exist. It would be fun trying to think up ways to patch those holes and flaws.

I'd even like to know simply if the thought of your local "authorized dealership" is something that you are in favor of, or opposed to... if it's something you are glad for, or feel constrained to... if you feel it offers protection and expertise, or if you feel local competition has been taken away.

I'd particularly like to hear, of these different viewpoints, if you consider yourself a current patron, or past patron of a local shop... or similarly if you either choose to not deal with the local shop, or if you work at one.

So what do you think?

Please, let's try to stay objective.. no personal whining please. Potential whiners - I'm sure you have a valid reason - just take emotion out of it and be objective - and try to consider the other side too, in your case

[spitvalveV2.0]

i think its interesting that shops everywhere sell product for less than MAP all the time, then forge phony recipts to get company warrantees taken care of.

and still have a rep for overcharging on equipment, as if a shop was designed to be a parts store.

however, some companies have very effective systems of only giving warantee to authorized customers, JL, Eclipse, and AudioControl come immediately to mind.

and yet other companies, such as earthquake try so hard to hold on to their dealers, and fail.....

i wonder what they do differently

[ScottS]

thats gay

[Regal1975]

hmm authorized dealer... tends to make me think of someone who knows the product, knows what it can and cant do... but honestly, short of knowing each and every installer/salesperson and educating them individually on the product, there is know way to assure this...i as an installer being forced into sales as well, have noticed the other salespeople doing similar things, and had to correct them in this.. sometimes to their benefit financially, sometimes not, but regardless, the majority of salespeople dont know jack about car audio.. they are just good at bullsh!tting.. as the guy you noted with the 13k system apparently found out....

[geolemon]

Ah, MAP!

Great thing to discuss, slipped my mind
.
So what's the reason for MAP pricing?
That's an interesting thought, isn't it?

Personally, I feel in many ways it's akin to price-fixing, and that is illegal, ironically... I'd like to compare and contrast...
Monopolistic practices are illegal also, but regionality isn't typically considered. Both are interesting things to discuss, and really are the root of what most enthusiasts find disturbing... both the lack of competition (and options in who to deal with), and the higher relative product prices demanded than any other retail industry.

My personal feeling is, if competition was allowed, both of these factors would be self-healing.
And that's why I believe it will never happen, unfortunately.

If there was competition, after all (ie. two "authorized dealers" allowed to exist within reasonable range of one another to promote competition), things would behave more as they do with other industries in this capitalist country... then the law of supply and demand would control prices more, and competition would provide options to consumers, who would then have choices on which retailer to utilize... price being just one consideration, of course.

Currently, under the "authorized dealership" scenario that disallows competition [dealerships only granted to retailers located significant miles away from an existing dealership], the consumer doesn't have a choice.

Unfortunately currently, if the dealer has poor service, bad attitude, or bad reputation, the consumer doesn't have the choice to choose "the other guy".

I don't see the benefit to the consumer...
And I believe the reasons manufacturers and retailers would tout is artificial... if anything encouraging competition and dropping MAP pricing would force adjustments to be made, across the manufacturing-to-retail chain.. because if prices dropped, equipment would be in more people's cars, enthusiasts or not.

[antler skills]

I was in Best Buy today and I asked to hear their Rockford equipment. The guy was showing me the Punch Z subs, and I said, "these sound distorted, sounds like you are putting too much power to them?" He assured me that it wasn't the case. I then asked how much he was putting to them, he showed me the amp behind it and said "its 250w rms per channel". Good thinking genius, they handle 150w rms each. And this is on DISPLAY.

I was also checking out these JBL speakers. I asked if they were blown, he says of course not but they dont sound as good as the Pioneers. I said so you mean to tell me you want $179 for those speakers when the $89 ones sound better? They were obviously blown, they sounded horrid.

[geolemon]

Originally posted by Regal1975 hmm authorized dealer... tends to make me think of someone who knows the product, knows what it can and cant do...

Well, that's what I think any person would initially assume...
The question (maybe problem) is... what do you think changes this impression in people, over time?
Most experienced enthusiasts don't seem to have this impression that "the shop knows best" after all, right?

Originally posted by Regal1975 but honestly, short of knowing each and every installer/salesperson and educating them individually on the product, there is know way to assure this...

If that can't be assured, what value does establishing an "authorized dealer" have?

And if there is value that is deemed important by the manufacturer and/or the shop, then isn't that value worth investing in to make it actually happen... and wouldn't measures be put in place to ensure that what is believed to be true, actually is true?

I think that's very fundamental.

[geolemon]

Originally posted by antler skills I was in Best Buy today and ....

I appreciate your post, antler skills - and welcome to CAF, btw - but please, let's keep the personal recounts off this thread, personal one-off issues and the like...

Let me restate your post... because it is a commonly voiced one (I just came off another thread with a very similar "incompatibility" issue, it's what motivated this thread).
Here's the general issue:

Lots of times, lots of people... salespeople have sold people gear that is fundamentally incompatible, usually subs and amps that aren't compatible.

All too often, it's due to commissioned sales structures... they get a piece of the sale, and often certain items have higher markups and higher commissions than others.
Makes sense to reward the salesperson to sell gear that makes the shop more profit, over gear that makes the shop less profit, but this certainly doesn't benefit the consumer...

Particularly when he's sold that gear under the guise of that higher-profit gear being "better" than other gear in the shop...

And especially when the consumer is just trying to get an innocent and often difficult-to-budget first start in the hobby and they end up being sold gear that is fundamentally incompatible.

[MMats4life]

well... i think there are too many problems with uneducated salemen and installers to even worry about who is authorized or not. i find that most customers only care about finding a person that knows thier sh!t!! Once they find that shop or certian installer, they leave major buying decisions in thier hands, no matter what the costs (of course there are budgets) or what products they are authorized to sell. This is what i did when i got started in the industry. there was a recomendation made. i started small and learned that is was a good shop, then i contiunued to spend my money, never questioning the cost of labor or products (felt sure i was getting a fair deal).
In my county there are over a dozen small shops and then at least another two dozen of best buys, CC, brandsmart etc. With all those choices.... there are about three shops that i would trust thier opinions for product choices and installation options. Granted that they may not be authorized, i still trust thier them. I feel the biggest destroyer of "authorized dealers" is the big retail chains. By far they carry the most uneducated sales staff, pushed by commision or selling service plans. Quick example of a friend who worked at BB in car audio asking me a question... "hey... can you explain to me this ohm's thing?"..."you dont know," I ask..."nah... i just read the boxes and stickers when someone asks a question."
so do i think being authorize is a biggie? nah... most of the places that are knowledgable and should be authorize cant make the purchase requirements anyways.
So in the end... who cares about authorization... as long as you have a warranty (any good shop will always help customers out with these issues) and you know the shop carries a good reputation without a sales team trying to sell everyone who walks in the door an alpine flip out and 4 w7's.

[Luke (Uof I)]

As far as installer knowledge, I think the "Free-rider" principle comes into play. Anyone can walk into a dealership and ask for advice on their products, what combinations will work, what parts they will need, et cetera. But then the customer can use this knowledge and buy the products on-line for a cheaper price. Part of the mark-up on products at authorized dealers goes to the training and salary of experienced and knowledged installers and salespeople. If people don't pay for this advice, the dealership can no longer afford the best possible service. Although this may be only part of the problem, I think it is becoming more and more prevalent with the success of internet shopping.

[#1SomeGuy]

Agreed, shops around here charge WAY too much for stuff. Who on earth would pay 600 bucks for a fusion 4 channel amp? or 550 bucks for a jbl 600.1? Granted that's canadian but still way overpriced.

That install, like nice equipment no doubt but way overpriced too. If shops were not so flippin expensive I would buy my stuff at one...for convience sake...but not when they charge over double what it actually costs.

[fugyaself]

An authorized dealer should be considered a rep of the companies they are authorized to sell IMO. They should know detailed info on all of the products from that company. Furthermore I would go so far to say that the salesperson and/or installer should educate the person buying this equipment. They should educate them on what they are getting and how its installed.


Personally I would never go to a "custom shop" or any audio shop for my car audio purchases in Las Vegas. Yes, selling you equipment that is incompatible is wrong. So is selling you equipment that is compatible and then wiring it wrong. My roomate had his L5s wired to 4ohms when they should have been wired to 1ohm.

[Regal1975]

Originally posted by geolemon Well, that's what I think any person would initially assume... The question (maybe problem) is... what do you think changes this impression in people, over time? Most experienced enthusiasts don't seem to have this impression that "the shop knows best" after all, right? If that can't be assured, what value does establishing an "authorized dealer" have? And if there is value that is deemed important by the manufacturer and/or the shop, then isn't that value worth investing in to make it actually happen... and wouldn't measures be put in place to ensure that what is believed to be true, actually is true? I think that's very fundamental. [/b]

damn good reply man.. honestly, there are so many issues involved... makes me feel ashamed to know that an honest dealer cant make a buck.. ive seen so many come and go...

what changes a persons impression of what a knowledgable dealer is.. well.. getting screwed repeatedly.. that is what did it to me...and if an honest dealer is found.. I as an educated consumer do my best to spend MY dollars there...

and as for making sure that the retailer is selling the product as it should be.. well id say that in an ideal world the manu and the retailer would be closely linked and each retailer would be handled on an individual basis to assure that everything was kosher, but this is where the financial model and the ideals clash... and in general the pocketbook wins...
this is why i fully stand behind the reasoning for online only sales.. how can the consumer get screwed if a manu with morals is selling direct to the consumer?? this is one reason why i think ED has done so well and audiomobile failed.. they tried to jump into the online market with no desire to help the consumer get what they needed... well that and the owner generally being a d!ckhole..

[Luke (Uof I)]

Geolemon:
I read the website that you linked to with the JL and Viper install. I'm assuming that you wrote it? What is the outcome of that situation? I would definately contact JL Audio and DEI and let them know exactly what happened and ask that they investigate the dealership in question. Hopefully, Manville will see this.

[MMats4life]

Originally posted by #1SomeGuy Agreed, shops around here charge WAY too much for stuff. Who on earth would pay 600 bucks for a fusion 4 channel amp? or 550 bucks for a jbl 600.1? Granted that's canadian but still way overpriced. That install, like nice equipment no doubt but way overpriced too. If shops were not so flippin expensive I would buy my stuff at one...for convience sake...but not when they charge over double what it actually costs.

not to jack the thread but....
so many people fail to realize that customer support (sales people, installers, managers, etc.), overhead (shop, electric, phone, gas, water, storefront, etc.) and many... many other things is why the prices where they are. now if a store front only had to pay $10 a year for DSN reg., and another $100 for site hosting... then they woulnt mind selling thier stuff for 5% over cost. I know it depends by area... but an average small shop around on a main road will be paying over 3000 (36000 yr) a month in rent alone. now add wages...salaries... electric... and so on... so if you cant make a couple of hundred a day, you wont last.