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Old 10-02-2017, 05:34 AM   #1
lozbritt

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Noobie help

Hey guys,

Hopefully you can give me some help with my sub build.

I currently have a JBL CS10 mounted in my ski pass, this is temporary and I want to build a box but because my car is a convertible if I just but the box in the boot then you can barely hear it as the boot is kind of separated from the car, with it in the ski pass it is much better and pretty loud for what it is. However some songs sound great but others it sounds more distorted than anything else. Like Young Jeezy - Skys the limit, all I can really hear is a load of low bass and it's hard to make out any actual individual bass notes or kicks.

I like tight punchy bass rather than deep ground shaking bass. Like when I am in a club I love the sound of the speakers you can feel them hitting hard but it isn't just a ton of low bass overpowering everything and sounding unclear. Some songs I hear there is a low bass over everything and I can barely hear the kicks and thumps, I want this to be the other way round, I would rather not hear the low bass that much but be kicked in the back, I wouldn't mind both

So a few questions, I am going to build my box to poke into the ski pass with the rest of the box into the boot, will that effect anything, or is it just down to the overall box size?

What kind of size box would I be looking for when I want tight punchy clear sq bass?

I am thinking about getting a 10inch type r and a dm9601, will this give me what I am looking for?

Will building a box with my current sub give me better sound quality?

Thanks
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Old 10-02-2017, 12:20 PM   #2
basicxj

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lozbritt View Post
Hey guys,

Hopefully you can give me some help with my sub build.

I currently have a JBL CS10 mounted in my ski pass, this is temporary and I want to build a box but because my car is a convertible if I just but the box in the boot then you can barely hear it as the boot is kind of separated from the car, with it in the ski pass it is much better and pretty loud for what it is. However some songs sound great but others it sounds more distorted than anything else. Like Young Jeezy - Skys the limit, all I can really hear is a load of low bass and it's hard to make out any actual individual bass notes or kicks.

I like tight punchy bass rather than deep ground shaking bass. Like when I am in a club I love the sound of the speakers you can feel them hitting hard but it isn't just a ton of low bass overpowering everything and sounding unclear. Some songs I hear there is a low bass over everything and I can barely hear the kicks and thumps, I want this to be the other way round, I would rather not hear the low bass that much but be kicked in the back, I wouldn't mind both

So a few questions, I am going to build my box to poke into the ski pass with the rest of the box into the boot, will that effect anything, or is it just down to the overall box size?

What kind of size box would I be looking for when I want tight punchy clear sq bass?

I am thinking about getting a 10inch type r and a dm9601, will this give me what I am looking for?

Will building a box with my current sub give me better sound quality?

Thanks
Before buying anything else, I would experiment with an optimum enclosure aimed through the pass-through. Sedans, SUVs and hatchbacks have something called transfer function which accentuates low frequency output, and with a convertible you don't get that phenomenon...that will be part of the problem. Taking some photos of your current setup, uploading them to a hosting site and linking here in your thread may shed some light on the issue.

Alpine's Type R is known for providing maximum bass in ported enclosures, and that bass is not of the "punchy and clear" variety- wrong tool for that job. What amp are you using? Where is the gain set? Are you using any bass boost features?
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:18 PM   #3
lozbritt

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Originally Posted by basicxj View Post
Before buying anything else, I would experiment with an optimum enclosure aimed through the pass-through. Sedans, SUVs and hatchbacks have something called transfer function which accentuates low frequency output, and with a convertible you don't get that phenomenon...that will be part of the problem. Taking some photos of your current setup, uploading them to a hosting site and linking here in your thread may shed some light on the issue.

Alpine's Type R is known for providing maximum bass in ported enclosures, and that bass is not of the "punchy and clear" variety- wrong tool for that job. What amp are you using? Where is the gain set? Are you using any bass boost features?
Yes I want to build an enclosure so in the manual it recommends 1 cubic foot should I go smaller than this for what I want?

If you search E46 ski hatch sub you will see how it's done at the moment it just mounted on a board in the ski pass no not yet.

Current amp is alpine m352 gain was set using multimeter maybes couple dB on the bass boost but I play around with that.

So if you see the E46 ski pass I would build the box to go into that and then extend in the boot to get the required volume?
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:37 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lozbritt View Post
Yes I want to build an enclosure so in the manual it recommends 1 cubic foot should I go smaller than this for what I want?

If you search E46 ski hatch sub you will see how it's done at the moment it just mounted on a board in the ski pass no not yet.

Current amp is alpine m352 gain was set using multimeter maybes couple dB on the bass boost but I play around with that.

So if you see the E46 ski pass I would build the box to go into that and then extend in the boot to get the required volume?
So you are using it "infinite baffle" at the moment.

Infinite baffle usage of the sub amounts to having it act like it is in a really large enclosure. A really large enclosure (provided none of the energy produced at the back of the cone can leak and interact with energy produced by the front of the cone) is good for low frequency output, but doesn't damp the woofer as it goes through its paces like a proper enclosure built to spec. As the woofer reaches full excursion through maximum amplifier power or clipping, the woofer no longer acts like it is properly damped and you get distortion. Power handling goes down.

I would build the recommended enclosure, with the face of the sub mounted on a baffle that fires through the pass-through. Seal up the face of the enclosure to the pass through to channel the most amount of bass energy into the passenger compartment. Turn bass boost off- for every db of boost you add, you are asking the amp to double its output at that frequency...that makes the amplifier clip and output dirty power and combined with the infinite baffle use, may also contribute to some of the distortion you are hearing.

Getting real, solid bass response in a convertible is not easy. The best way is to use the most capable subwoofer you can afford combined with lots (and I mean lots) of amplifier power behind it, in a truly sealed up infinite baffle setup or a sealed enclosure. A ported enclosure would provide more, but it is difficult to get most of the cone plus most of a port to load against a pass-through and still get clean, tight bass response. There are many sealed box subs with lots of throw that would perform, but most are not inexpensive- be prepared to spend a lot more than you think you need to, and have less performance than installing a similar woofer in a sedan/hatch/SUV. I would avoid the Type R for sealed use, especially if you want your bass tight and clean.

Last edited by basicxj; 10-02-2017 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 10-02-2017, 04:56 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by basicxj View Post
So you are using it "infinite baffle" at the moment.

Infinite baffle usage of the sub amounts to having it act like it is in a really large enclosure. A really large enclosure (provided none of the energy produced at the back of the cone can leak and interact with energy produced by the front of the cone) is good for low frequency output, but doesn't damp the woofer as it goes through its paces like a proper enclosure built to spec. As the woofer reaches full excursion through maximum amplifier power or clipping, the woofer no longer acts like it is properly damped and you get distortion. Power handling goes down.

I would build the recommended enclosure, with the face of the sub mounted on a baffle that fires through the pass-through. Seal up the face of the enclosure to the pass through to channel the most amount of bass energy into the passenger compartment. Turn bass boost off- for every db of boost you add, you are asking the amp to double its output at that frequency...that makes the amplifier clip and output dirty power and combined with the infinite baffle use, may also contribute to some of the distortion you are hearing.

Getting real, solid bass response in a convertible is not easy. The best way is to use the most capable subwoofer you can afford combined with lots (and I mean lots) of amplifier power behind it, in a truly sealed up infinite baffle setup or a sealed enclosure. A ported enclosure would provide more, but it is difficult to get most of the cone plus most of a port to load against a pass-through and still get clean, tight bass response. There are many sealed box subs with lots of throw that would perform, but most are not inexpensive- be prepared to spend a lot more than you think you need to, and have less performance than installing a similar woofer in a sedan/hatch/SUV. I would avoid the Type R for sealed use, especially if you want your bass tight and clean.
Okay thanks for that so I will build a sealed box and see what that's like. I read around that you should go smaller than recommended for more punchy bass is that not the case then?

What would you recommend for a future sub and amp for me in a similar price range?

Thanks
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Old 10-02-2017, 05:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lozbritt View Post
Okay thanks for that so I will build a sealed box and see what that's like. I read around that you should go smaller than recommended for more punchy bass is that not the case then?

What would you recommend for a future sub and amp for me in a similar price range?

Thanks
Smaller than recommended enclosures do emphasize the "punch" rather than lower frequencies, but also have reduced efficiency. They roll off lower frequencies compared to an optimally sized enclosure. In a convertible, you need all the output you can get, so if you go with a smaller than recommended enclosure volume you'll get less output and less chance for that output to be heard.

I would try the 1 cubic foot, then EQ a bit to get the response how you like it. If you are wanting to experiment, you can put an object that displaces air inside the enclosure to simulate the smaller box, and while you might get a bit more punch I don't think you'll like the overall loss of output.

As for product recommendations, what is that budget? Where are you located?
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Old 10-02-2017, 05:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basicxj View Post
Smaller than recommended enclosures do emphasize the "punch" rather than lower frequencies, but also have reduced efficiency. They roll off lower frequencies compared to an optimally sized enclosure. In a convertible, you need all the output you can get, so if you go with a smaller than recommended enclosure volume you'll get less output and less chance for that output to be heard.

I would try the 1 cubic foot, then EQ a bit to get the response how you like it. If you are wanting to experiment, you can put an object that displaces air inside the enclosure to simulate the smaller box, and while you might get a bit more punch I don't think you'll like the overall loss of output.

As for product recommendations, what is that budget? Where are you located?
I'm in the UK ideally would like to keep it around 200 for sub and amp but would stretch to 300 if it would be much better?
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Old 10-02-2017, 05:48 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by lozbritt View Post
I'm in the UK ideally would like to keep it around 200 for sub and amp but would stretch to 300 if it would be much better?
I don't think that would be close to cutting it- go with what you have and optimize it best you can.

There reason I ask location is that there are some manufacturer-direct woofers that perform very well from the US. Most members here are North American, and can get their hands on these relatively inexpensively. They would be pretty expensive to ship to the UK, negating any savings. Car audio in the UK (and Canada, where I live) is very expensive compared to the US. You won't get a hard-hitting woofer with lots of motor strength and excursion for that budget in the UK, and that is what you need to get meaningful bass levels in a convertible. It may take several times that budget to get a real performer, not including amp.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JL-Audio-W...-/261744279411

^^ for example, a strong woofer that sounds great and has lots of throw and impact in a sealed enclosure
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Old 10-02-2017, 05:55 PM   #9
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I don't think that would be close to cutting it- go with what you have and optimize it best you can.

There reason I ask location is that there are some manufacturer-direct woofers that perform very well from the US. Most members here are North American, and can get their hands on these relatively inexpensively. They would be pretty expensive to ship to the UK, negating any savings. Car audio in the UK (and Canada, where I live) is very expensive compared to the US. You won't get a hard-hitting woofer with lots of motor strength and excursion for that budget in the UK, and that is what you need to get meaningful bass levels in a convertible. It may take several times that budget to get a real performer, not including amp.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JL-Audio-W...-/261744279411

^^ for example, a strong woofer that sounds great and has lots of throw and impact in a sealed enclosure
My current sub is only 125watts though so surely I could see some improvements at that budget? This is why I was thinking the type r and amp I looked at would give 1000 watt RMS at 1ohm which would be nearly 10x the power I have currently
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:34 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lozbritt View Post
My current sub is only 125watts though so surely I could see some improvements at that budget? This is why I was thinking the type r and amp I looked at would give 1000 watt RMS at 1ohm which would be nearly 10x the power I have currently
The RMS power handling of the subwoofer is no indication of performance potential, it is merely an indication of how many watts that you can put through its voice coil on a continuous basis before thermal damage or failure will take place. The Type R is a "get loud on a budget" type woofer that needs a ported enclosure and full rated power to do its thing. It is not a tight, musical sounding woofer that will reproduce the nuances in music and be punchy when used in a small, sealed enclosure- that is not what it was designed to do.

If you were buying in the US market (where your car audio money goes farther than the UK), something like these would do well:

http://store.soundsolutionsaudio.com...on-series.html

http://store.soundsolutionsaudio.com...sd-series.html

...more motor strength, more excursion capability without sounding sloppy (like a Type R can in your application).

Unfortunately, there is less selection available in the UK, and what is available costs more. In a convertible, you'll definitely need more excursion, more motor strength and more clean amplifier power to get a reasonable amount of clean bass. Most of the time, that means spending for a really good subwoofer, designing the ideal enclosure for it and putting a strong amplifier behind it. Stepping up to a larger cone will help too.
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:40 AM   #11
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If you were to tell me you were after low, loud bass on a budget and weren't too concerned about accuracy, I'd say jump on a Type R .
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:44 AM   #12
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JBL-GT5-12...8AAOSw0bJZqI~o

^^ if you could make a 12" sub work, and want to upgrade your amp to something that does a solid 500 watts RMS @ 2 ohms, this would be an improvement over your current setup
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Old 10-03-2017, 02:41 PM   #13
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The JBL GT-5(in 1ft3 sealed) with a Pioneer 8601 amp. Keep the gains down, bc the sub doesn't need 500wrms
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