CarAudioForum.com

Go Back   CarAudioForum.com > Discussion Forums > Car Audio: General

Reply
Old 08-22-2008, 04:21 PM   #1
shorterthanrich

Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,041
shorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to behold



6.5" Midbass Suggestions

Hey everyone, I havn't been around in a while. Things still seem to be as always around here, so thats good to see. Anything new?

Anyway, I'm helping my good friend with his new car audio setup. He just got a 2001 Celica GTS that he plans on doing a ton of work to, including audio.

We'll be doing a fair amount of sound dampening...most likely damplifier or damplifier pro.
We already picked up two 130V.2 DVC 4 ohms, plan on powering them with the AQ-2200D (slight overpowering, but we'll set the gains properly and just leave him some room for future upgrades if he wants too. It's priced very well to boot...unless anyone has better suggestions for that). and running them in smaller, sealed enclosures (1CF each). Its a very small car and hatchback, so it should be plenty bass.

For the Comps we're thinking CDT Audio CL-61A/TW-24. Most likely powered by a Cadence TXA series amp.

He's got two extra 6.5" holes to use, though, and he's pretty big on midbass. So we're looking for some nice ones to match the system. Under $200 would be nice. If 6.5" is definitely too small for most of you, and you talk me into it, we can modify the size and get it up to 8"...

Thanks guys - any system input is appreciated!
shorterthanrich is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Help Syrian Refugees Survive. Donate Now!
Or text REFUGEES to 50555 to give $10 to USA for UNHCR
Old 08-22-2008, 04:33 PM   #2
SPL BRONCO II

Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Senior Vice President of Car Audio Forum
Posts: 19,492
SPL BRONCO II has a reputation beyond reputeSPL BRONCO II has a reputation beyond reputeSPL BRONCO II has a reputation beyond reputeSPL BRONCO II has a reputation beyond reputeSPL BRONCO II has a reputation beyond reputeSPL BRONCO II has a reputation beyond reputeSPL BRONCO II has a reputation beyond reputeSPL BRONCO II has a reputation beyond reputeSPL BRONCO II has a reputation beyond reputeSPL BRONCO II has a reputation beyond reputeSPL BRONCO II has a reputation beyond repute



Look into Kicker SSMB8's and 6's and as well as the JL Audio 6w0's.
SPL BRONCO II is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-22-2008, 05:53 PM   #3
buddha73

Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: lansing, mi
Posts: 3,159
buddha73 has a reputation beyond reputebuddha73 has a reputation beyond reputebuddha73 has a reputation beyond reputebuddha73 has a reputation beyond reputebuddha73 has a reputation beyond reputebuddha73 has a reputation beyond reputebuddha73 has a reputation beyond reputebuddha73 has a reputation beyond reputebuddha73 has a reputation beyond reputebuddha73 has a reputation beyond reputebuddha73 has a reputation beyond repute



mach 5 6.5

http://www.mach5audio.com/zen/index....roducts_id=183

5.5mm xmax

i remember reading a review from i think mvw2, might have been on diyma though
buddha73 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-25-2008, 09:04 PM   #4
shorterthanrich

Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,041
shorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to behold



For midbass is it an issue to go with different brand speakers than the comps?

Any other suggestions? For the price range up to $200
shorterthanrich is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-25-2008, 09:37 PM   #5
mvw2

Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,865
mvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond repute



The Mach 5 is a nice woofer, but I think it's misused as a midbass. It's a much better full range driver that's happy up to 4kHz. Sensitivity rolled off below 100Hz, and 5.5mm does get used up pretty quick when we're talking lower midbass frequencies. For midbass only, I would look at something with a LOT more excursion. The only problem is most good ones are really 7" drivers, not 6.5", so the baskets are a hair bigger, mounting holes at a slightly larger diameter, and flanges slightly larger. If you were thinking of stepping to an 8", a 7" midbass wouldn't be a big issue then anyways. You just have to debate between sticking with a 7" or stepping to an 8".

For 7" - CSS SDX7 is pretty much king and was designed as the replacement for the Extremis, but cleaner and more detailed.

For 8" - I'm somewhat partial to Dayton's Reference series 210HF 8" sub as it's both more of a true sub but also really, really good for lower midrange. Even their 12" subs were wholely usable to say 600Hz or 800Hz. Expect a very clean, crisp, and light sound. It's just not compact, so you need some depth and space to fit it.
mvw2 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-25-2008, 10:09 PM   #6
shorterthanrich

Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,041
shorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to behold



Quote:
Originally Posted by mvw2 View Post
The Mach 5 is a nice woofer, but I think it's misused as a midbass. It's a much better full range driver that's happy up to 4kHz. Sensitivity rolled off below 100Hz, and 5.5mm does get used up pretty quick when we're talking lower midbass frequencies. For midbass only, I would look at something with a LOT more excursion. The only problem is most good ones are really 7" drivers, not 6.5", so the baskets are a hair bigger, mounting holes at a slightly larger diameter, and flanges slightly larger. If you were thinking of stepping to an 8", a 7" midbass wouldn't be a big issue then anyways. You just have to debate between sticking with a 7" or stepping to an 8".

For 7" - CSS SDX7 is pretty much king and was designed as the replacement for the Extremis, but cleaner and more detailed.

For 8" - I'm somewhat partial to Dayton's Reference series 210HF 8" sub as it's both more of a true sub but also really, really good for lower midrange. Even their 12" subs were wholely usable to say 600Hz or 800Hz. Expect a very clean, crisp, and light sound. It's just not compact, so you need some depth and space to fit it.

Thanks for that response! Where can I get that CSS? That's probably doable
shorterthanrich is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-25-2008, 10:10 PM   #7
mvw2

Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,865
mvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond repute



Creative Sound Solutions
http://www.creativesound.ca/
mvw2 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-26-2008, 02:52 AM   #8
neillio

Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 15yr member
Posts: 6,713
neillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond repute



I have a pair of very lightly used Vifa PL 7" (the rare 4 ohm ones). They excel very well in the midbass area. All the way to 4.5khz Give you a heck of a deal
neillio is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-26-2008, 03:07 AM   #9
shorterthanrich

Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,041
shorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to beholdshorterthanrich is a splendid one to behold



Quote:
Originally Posted by neillio View Post
I have a pair of very lightly used Vifa PL 7" (the rare 4 ohm ones). They excel very well in the midbass area. All the way to 4.5khz Give you a heck of a deal

pm sent.

Aside from that...

are most midbass speakers going to need boxes built for them? I've never dabbled in this area...
shorterthanrich is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-26-2008, 03:27 AM   #10
neillio

Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 15yr member
Posts: 6,713
neillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond repute



most midbass speakers were/are designed to be in doors or a vented enclosure/kickpanel. I have have seen a couple spec out to say they needed to be sealed up. I have never used one however. PM responded to.
neillio is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-26-2008, 04:56 AM   #11
mvw2

Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,865
mvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond repute



The Vifa PL woofers are supposed to be decent low end performers. They apparently offer a smoother, fuller sound from what I've seen from others descriptions. Just a small note. They are not specifically geared towards midbass and do lack excess excursion. In terms of raw output and the generally low x-over frequency one would probably choose, this does become important if the end user desires a lot of output. Because of this, I would stress sticking to a driver with a considerable amount of excursion available, something geared for midbass or even subwoofer duty if they will be low passed relatively low or if the mini sub can play decently high. If price is a concern, you could look at Peerless' SLS line for an affordable subwoofer oriented mid.

I've got nothing against you selling your PL woofers neillio. It's simply a matter of an optimized solution for the application. For anyone looking for a smooth midwoofer with lots of bass for a 2-way setup, it's a great choice. For someone looking for a dedicated midbass monster, there simply are other, better choices.

As far as boxes go, it really depends on the woofer's design. You can think of all drivers, subwoofers, midwoofers, even tweeters, in the same way as you do a subwoofer. They are all designed the same, just on a different scale. They all are designed to operate in certain "enclosure" ranges. Even tweeters are enclosed units. It's essentially a mini woofer in a sealed box. That is a tweeter. When looking at mid woofers and midbass woofers, you approach it the same way as anything else. You look at the T/S specs and see what the ideal enclosure should be. Should it be in a tiny, sealed kick panel? Should it be in a large, open door? Is it better suited for sealed or ported? What frequency response will I get in these enclosures? Is one a better option than the other?

If you're confused about this, take some time modeling up a variety of midwoofers, midbass, and mini subwoofers in some box modeling software, WinISD, BassBox, the ported.xls spreadsheet from www.diysubwoofers.org, online box calculators if they show frequency response, anything. Model up some smaller drivers. Play with enclosure size and ported and sealed designs. It's also useful to use a calculator that takes into account excursion use and power use as it will shed light on output limitations of the drivers you check.

When you start doing this, a variety of things will come to light and you will begin to see your choices in a whole new way.

Now I want to make a note that one should not get completely hung up on some resulting frequency response of a certain woofer. You can always EQ the desired response later, and you will also have some cabin gain effect to aid (or not) the end result. In the end, you are generally stuck with the genuine sound characteristics of the driver and its mechanical capabilities (thermal and excursion). For shear capability, one should primarily look at rated rms wattage PLUS sensitivity, these go hand in hand, and both linear xmax and non-linear xmech/xsus of the driver. Thermal will limit higher frequencies, and excursion will limit lower frequencies in terms of raw capable output. Of course this says nothing about how a driver will sound. It can be extremely output capable and sound like crap or low output and sound great. Ideally, you want great sounding and lots of capable output. Also by great sounding, I both mean good accuracy in reproduction AND the desired coloration that the end user prefers (smooth, crisp, light, thick, etc.)
mvw2 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-26-2008, 04:03 PM   #12
Jimi77

Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 24,872
Jimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond repute



Exodus also has a "Extremis replacment."

http://www.diycable.com/main/product...roducts_id=538

http://www.exodusaudio.com/images/EX_docs.pdf

The problem with the Exodus ex-6.5 and CSS sdx7 is that qts is a little low for infinite baffle applications. You can raise the q a little by wrapping the driver in poly or fiberglass, but that requires some sort of fabrication.

The Dayton Reference series woofers are little higher Q and the upper midrange break-up shouldn't be a problem for a pure midbass application.

I'm not sure why there is a need for over 5-6mm of excursion for the (6.5") midbass driver. If you absolutely must cross the fronts below 80hz, then you'll want more than 5-6mm of xmax. If you have to listen to your front stage at greater than ear drum shattering levels, then you may want more than 6mm of xmax. For the vast majority of listeners/systems 5-6mm of xmax should be fine.

Datasheet on the sd-x7. http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/CSS-...ata-261207.pdf
Jimi77 is online now   Reply With Quote

Old 08-26-2008, 04:58 PM   #13
mvw2

Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,865
mvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond reputemvw2 has a reputation beyond repute



True, the QTS is a little lower than one would shoot for in a door install. This can constrain the bottom end response some, needing some EQing to flatten and extend the response. At the same time, this also means the driver is tight and well controlled rather than loose and sloppy. The -3dB roll off point of the SDX7 in a door (say 4 cu.ft.) is just above 80Hz. Ideal enclosure size is 0.3 cu.ft. and would provide a -3dB roll off point at just under 70Hz.
mvw2 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-26-2008, 06:43 PM   #14
neillio

Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 15yr member
Posts: 6,713
neillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond reputeneillio has a reputation beyond repute



The Vifa PL 7's are fine when installed in an IB application. They are detailed in the 50-4500hz FR. The OP is going to use a pair of 12's along with a 6.5" component set. shorterthanrich explained his friend likes his midbass. Midbass(to me)...would be in the 50-5khz area. The PL's have 6mm of usuable throw and are quite 'punchy' below 1khz. And, the only other reason I suggested them...he could get the Vifa at a 241 deal
neillio is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 08-26-2008, 11:41 PM   #15
Jimi77

Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 24,872
Jimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond reputeJimi77 has a reputation beyond repute



Quote:
Originally Posted by mvw2 View Post
True, the QTS is a little lower than one would shoot for in a door install. This can constrain the bottom end response some, needing some EQing to flatten and extend the response. At the same time, this also means the driver is tight and well controlled rather than loose and sloppy. The -3dB roll off point of the SDX7 in a door (say 4 cu.ft.) is just above 80Hz. Ideal enclosure size is 0.3 cu.ft. and would provide a -3dB roll off point at just under 70Hz.

It's been my experience that rather than tight, the midbass will sound muddy (loose and sloppy). QTS/C can be raised using a quasi-aperiodic "enclosure." Unfortunately the PL's are another low Q driver.
Jimi77 is online now   Reply With Quote

Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:41 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® - Copyright © 2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1996 - 2011 by CarAudioForum.com - all rights reserved.